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Total Economic Impact
Cost Savings And Business Benefits Enabled With The RISE With SAP Journey
A FORRESTER TOTAL ECONOMIC IMPACT STUDY COMMISSIONED BY SAP and AWS, December 2025
Total Economic Impact
A FORRESTER TOTAL ECONOMIC IMPACT STUDY COMMISSIONED BY SAP and AWS, December 2025
As technology executives seek to address modern business demands for agility and innovation, they are transitioning from on-premises enterprise resource planning (ERP) solutions to cloud-based systems designed with business process transformation capabilities and AI at their core. RISE with SAP on AWS provides a guided journey for SAP ERP customers to modernize their ERP systems in the cloud and create business value by leveraging the full potential of the SAP Business Suite and AWS services.
RISE with SAP is a transformation journey that can help SAP ERP customers modernize to SAP Cloud ERP Private (SAP S4/HANA Cloud Private Edition).1 RISE with SAP on AWS provides on-premises SAP ERP customers a path to cloud ERP, the SAP Business Suite, and a broad set of services from AWS. Organizations can realize the benefits of SAP Cloud ERP Private on AWS in business and IT areas. For IT, the solution can help organizations lower total cost of ownership and improve systems availability and security. On the business side, the solution can increase productivity through streamlined business operations, while setting the stage for boosting innovation through AI.
SAP and AWS commissioned Forrester Consulting to conduct a Total Economic Impact™ (TEI) study and examine the potential return on investment (ROI) enterprises may realize by modernizing to SAP Cloud ERP Private on AWS.2 The purpose of this study is to provide readers with a framework to evaluate the potential financial impact of SAP Cloud ERP Private on AWS on their organizations.
To better understand the benefits, costs, and risks associated with this investment, Forrester interviewed four decision-makers with experience moving to SAP Cloud ERP Private on AWS using the RISE with SAP journey. For the purposes of this study, Forrester aggregated the experiences of the interviewees and combined the results into a single composite organization, which is a manufacturing and retail organization with 20,000 employees and $15 billion annual revenue.
Interviewees said that prior to the RISE with SAP on AWS journey, their organizations either ran SAP ERP Central Component (SAP ECC) or were searching for a new ERP cloud solution. Legacy ERP systems had a high cost of ownership and technical debt due to customizations and presented organizations with many operational inefficiencies. Interviewees also stated that senior management had embraced the cloud as a platform for future growth and innovation, so they were seeking partners to help them on this journey.
After migrating to SAP Cloud ERP Private on AWS, interviewees’ organizations could accelerate cloud adoption and support business growth in today’s digitally connected ecosystem. By moving to SAP Cloud ERP Private on AWS, their organizations improved employee productivity, streamlined IT operations, and enhanced system reliability — all while reducing costly legacy infrastructure.
Quantified benefits. Three-year, risk-adjusted present value (PV) quantified benefits for the composite organization include:
Reduced costs of $6.1 million from phasing out on-premises data centers. A larger benefit related to the primary objective of migrating to SAP Cloud ERP Private on AWS is savings that include data center hardware, infrastructure software, and all associated resources that manage the data center. In addition, this benefit includes costs previously incurred for additional hardware to meet seasonal and periodic data processing demands.
Reduction in inventory carrying costs of 3%, worth $6.7 million. With the order management and inventory control features in SAP Cloud ERP Private, the composite gains complete visibility of all inventory across its stores and warehouses. This enables it to move inventory across its network and ship to customers more easily, reducing overall inventory levels and associated carrying costs.
Recovered downtime of 53,000 user hours per year. After migrating to SAP Cloud ERP Private on AWS, the composite eliminates almost all downtime due to unplanned system outages. It also eliminates planned outages for patches and upgrades, which SAP’s cloud operations and support teams now manage. Altogether, this time savings translates into a productivity increase for SAP users worth $1.2 million over three years.
Realized 15% to 20% efficiency gains in monthly financial closing activities. By eliminating the high levels of customized code in on-premises ERP and taking advantage of AWS autoscaling, the composite organization compresses closing activities by one day each month. This leads to increased productivity for SAP finance users worth $2.7 million over three years.
Unquantified benefits. Benefits that provide value for the composite organization but are not quantified for this study include:
Reduction in vendors and vendor management costs. With SAP Cloud ERP Private, the composite gains better visibility of all its supplier relationships and can consolidate contracts, which leads to better spend management and lower costs for managing vendors.
Launching additional new products. By integrating its product lifecycle management portfolio with SAP Cloud ERP Private, the composite organization experiences more effective new product development processes. It can now collect input from more data sources and better track new product ideas throughout their lifecycle.
Consolidation of payroll systems for permanent employees and contract workers. With SAP Cloud ERP Private, the composite organization consolidates separate payroll systems for permanent and temporary workers into a single application. This speeds up payroll processing and enables it to process employee status changes more easily.
Simplified IT architecture. By transitioning from a highly customized on-premises SAP ECC platform to SAP Cloud ERP Private on AWS, the composite organization takes advantage of the SAP reference architecture deployed on AWS to provide scalable infrastructure services and a better position for growth in the cloud.
Enhanced security with AWS. SAP Cloud ERP Private on AWS enables the composite to take advantage of built-in AWS security features for data encryption and secure data access in addition to the advanced security services provided by SAP cloud operations.
Costs. Three-year, risk-adjusted PV costs for the composite organization include:
External migration costs of $4.1 million. The largest and most variable component of costs, the composite pays migration costs to systems integrators (SIs) for planning and managing the ERP migration to SAP Cloud ERP Private on AWS. These costs include all consulting fees for business transformation initiatives. For the composite organization, this migration period lasts 18 months.
Internal migration costs of $2.8 million. Corresponding with the external costs, these costs are for staff to work alongside SI staff on various teams. Roles in the composite organization include project and program managers, business analysts, and software testers.
Annual SAP Cloud ERP Private subscription fees of $2.1 million. The composite pays fees to SAP for SAP Cloud ERP Private, operational tools, technical cloud services, transformation tools and services, AWS hosting and autoscaling, and all version upgrades.
Training fees of $981,000. The composite pays these fees primarily to the SI for training SAP users on business transformation and to SAP for its annual training package.
Internal SAP support costs of $1.5 million. These costs are for internal resources that support SAP users and handle SAP application configurations.
The financial analysis that is based on the interviews found that a composite organization experiences benefits of $16.7 million over three years versus costs of $11.5 million, adding up to a net present value (NPV) of $5.2 million and an ROI of 45%. This ROI will meaningfully increase with a longer time horizon due to the large up-front investment required for migration.
Net present value over three years
with SAP Cloud ERP Private on AWS
Return on investment (ROI)
Benefits PV
Net present value (NPV)
Payback
| Role | Industry | Region | Employees |
|---|---|---|---|
| Managing director, cloud core banking data and integration | Financial services | North America | ~100,000 |
| Head of retail technology | Consumer products manufacturing | North America | ~26,000 |
| Cloud and connectivity leader | Consumer products manufacturing | Europe | 6,500 |
| IT manager | Industrial manufacturing | Asia Pacific | 5,000 |
Interviewees’ organizations faced several issues and challenges with their previous data centers and SAP environments. These included high technical debt associated with legacy systems, complexity from extensive SAP customizations, and other operational inefficiencies. Two of the organizations migrated their SAP ECC systems to SAP Cloud ERP Private on AWS. The other two were moving from other ERP systems to SAP Cloud ERP Private on AWS as new implementations.
Interviewees noted how their organizations struggled with common challenges, including:
High costs associated with maintaining on-premises data centers. Three of four interviewees’ organizations managed in-house data centers with aging infrastructure. These data centers required significant time and staffing to maintain. The fourth organization used a third-party data center and was seeking to reduce these costs.
Difficulty managing updates and integrations due to complex architectures. Two of the interviewees’ organizations spent years customizing their SAP environments, which led to operational inefficiencies and extreme difficulties managing updates and integrations. All the interviewees’ organizations frequently experienced planned and unplanned outages for version upgrades and patches that resulted in significant downtime and operational disruptions.
Limited ability to scale operations quickly. The manufacturing organizations in the study had to plan weeks in advance for seasonal capacity needs, which required additional hardware investments. The bank also experienced drags on performance during monthly financial closing periods, which affected all finance users.
Inefficient processes and lack of standardization across business units. Some interviewees’ organizations ran duplicate systems for similar functions, such as finance and marketing. The lack of standardization led to challenges integrating employee and customer data and for monthly payroll processing and regular marketing campaigns.
Planned end of support for the on-premises version of SAP ECC. Some interviewees cited SAP’s planned end of mainstream support for SAP ECC on-premises systems as a factor influencing their consideration of a transition to SAP Cloud ERP Private.
The interviewees’ organizations searched for a solution that could:
Lower total cost of ownership, including retiring legacy infrastructure.
Simplify IT operations and reduce the complexity of managing customized systems.
Position them for business growth and transformation initiatives by leveraging cloud-based applications and services.
Enable migration to cloud for enhanced security, scalability, availability, and flexibility.
Enhance data integration and management for better decision-making and operational efficiency.
The interviewees’ organizations chose SAP Cloud ERP Private on AWS for the following reasons:
ERP process standardization. Interviewees’ organizations wanted to simplify and consolidate processes to reduce ERP customization and complexity. By modernizing to cloud ERP, they were set up for timely upgrades and easier integrations with other applications and AWS services.
Familiarity and existing infrastructure. All interviewees’ organizations had already been using AWS for other applications, and in some cases, as a foundation for their cloud journey. This familiarity drove them to AWS as their infrastructure provider.
Support for innovation. Interviewees expressed a desire to utilize AWS’s advanced tools and services, such as data management services and AI/ML capabilities, to innovate and improve their business processes. They could complement these with SAP products.
Security and reliability. Two key requirements for interviewees’ organizations were robust security features and increased system uptime. For one organization, AWS provided dedicated communication lines for secure connections. For all organizations, the AWS environment provided built-in encryption and access controls to protect sensitive data. The SAP reference architecture and cloud operations enable these features, among others.
Scalability and flexibility. SAP provides tools to monitor and manage workloads, leveraging AWS’s capability to scale resources up or down quickly, which is particularly beneficial for businesses with fluctuating demands. This flexibility was a significant factor for consumer products companies that experience seasonal spikes in demand.
Integration capabilities. AWS’s ability to integrate with existing systems and data platforms was a crucial factor for integrating consumer data across multiple business areas. One interviewee’s organization manages multiple brands in its portfolio, with an array of applications with which to connect.
Based on the interviews, Forrester constructed a TEI framework, a composite company, and an ROI analysis that illustrates the areas financially affected. The composite organization is representative of the interviewees’ organizations, and it is used to present the aggregate financial analysis in the next section. The composite organization has the following characteristics:
Description of composite. The composite organization is a global consumer products manufacturing organization, with a retail division selling its products in North America. It distributes its products through its own retail stores and third-party online marketplaces. The organization has $15 billion in annual revenue and approximately 20,000 employees. Its previous SAP environment was SAP ECC managed by an in-house data center. It has 5,000 SAP users across finance, supply chain, human resources, and procurement. Management sought to modernize its IT infrastructure by taking advantage of cloud-based systems, while saving on overall IT costs.
Deployment characteristics. The composite organization begins using the solution in Year 1 following an 18-month implementation period. A global SI led the implementation with part-time support from 25 employees in various roles. The composite completely phases out its existing data center in Year 3.
$15 billion revenue
20,000 employees
5,000 SAP users
| Ref. | Benefit | Year 1 | Year 2 | Year 3 | Total | Present Value |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Atr | Reduction in inventory carrying costs | $2,700,000 | $2,700,000 | $2,700,000 | $8,100,000 | $6,714,500 |
| Btr | Reduction in data center infrastructure, maintenance fees, and staffing | $1,820,700 | $2,476,050 | $3,131,400 | $7,428,150 | $6,054,171 |
| Ctr | Incremental output per finance worker | $1,081,200 | $1,081,200 | $1,081,200 | $3,243,600 | $2,688,784 |
| Dtr | Productivity gains from higher systems availability | $495,550 | $495,550 | $495,550 | $1,486,650 | $1,232,360 |
| Total benefits (risk-adjusted) | $6,097,450 | $6,752,800 | $7,408,150 | $20,258,400 | $16,689,815 |
Evidence and data. One consumer products manufacturing company in the study distributes its products through its own retail store as well as general merchandise stores and branded online websites. With SAP Cloud ERP Private on AWS, the company reduced its inventory levels, corresponding carrying costs, and stockouts, and gained broader inventory visibility across its channels.
Before migrating to SAP Cloud ERP Private on AWS, this organization had no integrated inventory control or order management. There was a single view of inventory in distribution centers. Each retail store could order product from the centers manually and through automatic stock level triggers. This led to frequent stockouts in the distribution centers and many stores, while other stores might have excess stock.
Once SAP Cloud ERP Private with SAP order management system was in place, stores had complete visibility of all inventory throughout distribution centers and retail stores. This enabled the organization to ship from any center or store, resulting in reduced inventory levels companywide. The organization could more easily monitor and move inventory to store locations where it was most needed. In turn, it lowered out of stock instances and improved customer satisfaction with orders. The head of retail technology at this organization summarized, “With [SAP Cloud ERP Private], now we’ve got this whole view in SAP of knowing where everything is at any time.”
The organization reduced total finished goods inventory levels by 10%, equating to savings in carrying costs of approximately $4 million annually.
Modeling and assumptions. Based on the interviews, Forrester assumes the following about the composite organization:
The composite organization’s average inventory value equates to 10% of total revenue, 40% of which is in North America.
Estimated inventory carrying costs are 20% of total inventory value.
Total reduction in inventory is 10%, 30% of which is attributable to SAP Cloud ERP Private. Other reductions are due to business transformation changes and new process execution.
Risks. Organizations will have varying degrees of cost savings related to inventory and order management in SAP based on:
Previous use of order and inventory management in SAP S4/HANA on-premises.
Methods of distribution and inventory dispersion across stores and warehouses.
Value of total inventory as a percentage of revenue.
Results. To account for these risks, Forrester adjusted this benefit downward by 25%, yielding a three-year, risk-adjusted total PV (discounted at 10%) of $6.7 million.
Reduction in overall inventory levels with SAP Cloud ERP Private
| Ref. | Metric | Source | Year 1 | Year 2 | Year 3 | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| A1 | Value of inventory in North America | Composite | $600,000,000 | $600,000,000 | $600,000,000 | |
| A2 | Inventory carrying costs (20% of total inventory value) | Composite | $120,000,000 | $120,000,000 | $120,000,000 | |
| A3 | Percentage reduction in inventory costs attributable to ERP enabled by SAP Cloud ERP Private on AWS | Interviews | 3% | 3% | 3% | |
| At | Reduction in inventory carrying costs | A2*A3 | $3,600,000 | $3,600,000 | $3,600,000 | |
| Risk adjustment | ↓25% | |||||
| Atr | Reduction in inventory carrying costs (risk-adjusted) | $2,700,000 | $2,700,000 | $2,700,000 | ||
| Three-year total: $8,100,000 | Three-year present value: $6,714,500 | |||||
Evidence and data. A primary goal of migrating to SAP Cloud ERP Private on AWS among interviewees’ organizations was cost savings from eliminating on-premises data centers and associated expenses.
The largest portion of savings came from eliminating data centers, which included hardware, software, space, utilities, and other indirect costs. Among interviewees’ organizations, these savings ranged from $1.2 million to $2 million per year. The IT manager at an industrial manufacturing firm said, “When the mainframe is retired, we expect to save [nearly $2 million] annually in hardware/software and another [$400,000] in labor.”
Some organizations required significant increases in hardware capacity and computing resources on a temporary basis, such as for seasonal demands or periodic processing peaks. In such cases, interviewees indicated additional investments of $120,000 to $150,000 to procure necessary hardware and software as well as several weeks of planning. As the IT manager at an industrial manufacturing firm explained: “In order to scale up something, we needed to first get the equipment which took two to three months. Then implementation itself took about a month. Now that we have moved onto [SAP Cloud ERP Private on] AWS, the scale up takes only about a week.”
Interviewees’ organizations reassigned anywhere from three to 80 FTEs in IT who were responsible for on-premises systems infrastructure management and support. These reassignments typically occurred over the modeling period (i.e., within three years).
With SAP ECC, organizations paid annual maintenance fees, which the SAP Cloud ERP Private pricing structure eliminated.
Organizations in the study phased out on-premises centers and reassigned staff over one to three years.
Modeling and assumptions. Based on the interviews, Forrester assumes the following about the composite organization:
Before the migration, the composite spends $1.5 million each year on its in-house data center, including space, utilities, hardware, and infrastructure software. It phases out this expenditure over a three-year period.
Before the shift to the new environment, the composite spends $150,000 per year on capacity upscaling for peak processing times.
There are 12 FTEs assigned to support the on-premises data center. The composite will reassign them over the same three-year period as it phases out the data center.
Before the migration, the composite spends $450,000 each year on SAP maintenance fees for its SAP ECC system.
Risks. Organizations will have varying degrees of cost savings related to the elimination of an in-house data center based on:
Costs associated with the data center and who manages it (e.g., in-house employees or a third party).
The capacity and performance of the hardware and how well it meets operational needs throughout the year.
Average salary and growth rates for systems infrastructure staff.
Results. To account for these risks, Forrester adjusted this benefit downward by 15%, yielding a three-year, risk-adjusted total PV (discounted at 10%) of $6.1 million.
In-house infrastructure savings over three years
| Ref. | Metric | Source | Year 1 | Year 2 | Year 3 | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| B1 | Data center infrastructure cost per year | Composite | $1,500,000 | $1,500,000 | $1,500,000 | |
| B2 | Percentage of data center transferred to SAP Cloud ERP Private on AWS | Interviews | 50% | 75% | 100% | |
| B3 | Infrastructure cost for additional capacity needs | Composite | $150,000 | $150,000 | $150,000 | |
| B4 | Subtotal: Cost savings from previous data center reduction | B1*B2+B3 | $900,000 | $1,275,000 | $1,650,000 | |
| B5 | Workers reassigned | Composite | 6 | 9 | 12 | |
| B6 | Average fully burdened annual salary for a systems admin | Research data | $132,000 | $132,000 | $132,000 | |
| B7 | Subtotal: Reallocation of data center headcount | B5*B6 | $792,000 | $1,188,000 | $1,584,000 | |
| B8 | Elimination of SAP on-premises maintenance fees | Vendor | $450,000 | $450,000 | $450,000 | |
| Bt | Reduction in data center infrastructure, maintenance fees, and staffing | B4+B7+B8 | $2,142,000 | $2,913,000 | $3,684,000 | |
| Risk adjustment | ↓15% | |||||
| Btr | Reduction in data center infrastructure, maintenance fees, and staffing (risk-adjusted) | $1,820,700 | $2,476,050 | $3,131,400 | ||
| Three-year total: $7,428,150 | Three-year present value: $6,054,171 | |||||
Evidence and data. Previous financial processes were inefficient due to on-premises infrastructure limitations and outdated, heavily customized financial processes. After the migration to SAP Cloud ERP Private on AWS, organizations could complete financial processes much faster.
One issue that plagued interviewees’ organizations was the amount of customization in their SAP ECC on-premises systems. The financial institution had more than 80 distinct finance workflows across multiple applications, which slowed end-of-month processing and reconciliation tasks. After completing process standardization as part of the migration, the interviewee reported 15% to 20% efficiency improvement in daily general ledger processing and 10% improvement in end-of-month activities. The compute elasticity available on AWS (managed through SAP monitoring tools) also helped improve efficiency.
Two interviewees noted the integration of SAP with AWS’s data analytics tools had enhanced financial reporting capabilities, so their organizations could generate reports more quickly and with greater accuracy. This improvement in reporting helped downstream decision-making and financial planning.
The universal journal in SAP S4/HANA created a single repository of financial data that previously existed across multiple ledgers in SAP ECC. This consolidated structure contributed to a faster closing process.
Modeling and assumptions. Based on the interviews, Forrester assumes the following about the composite organization:
There are 500 finance SAP users at the composite organization. Their average fully burdened hourly rate is $53.
After migrating to SAP Cloud ERP Private on AWS, the organization shortens its financial closing process from five days to four, savings eight hours per month (a 20% efficiency gain).
A productivity recapture rate of 50% has been applied to this calculation. This assumes that employees can productively use one-half of the time previously lost due to outages.
Risks. The degree of savings related to finance processes may vary based on:
The number of financial processes that organizations can consolidate into SAP Cloud ERP Private.
The level of customization and complexity in organizations’ previous financial processing systems.
Average salary and growth rates for SAP finance users.
Results. To account for these risks, Forrester adjusted this benefit downward by 15%, yielding a three-year, risk-adjusted total PV (discounted at 10%) of $2.7 million.
Efficiency gains in financial closing activities
| Ref. | Metric | Source | Year 1 | Year 2 | Year 3 | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| C1 | Finance employees impacted by SAP Cloud ERP Private on AWS | Composite | 500 | 500 | 500 | |
| C2 | Average fully burdened hourly rate for a finance employee | Research data | $53 | $53 | $53 | |
| C3 | Time saved in monthly payroll and accounting closings (hours) | Interviews | 8 | 8 | 8 | |
| C4 | Percentage of recovered time recaptured for other work tasks | TEI methodology | 50% | 50% | 50% | |
| Ct | Incremental output per finance worker | C1*C2*C3*C4*12 | $1,272,000 | $1,272,000 | $1,272,000 | |
| Risk adjustment | ↓15% | |||||
| Ctr | Incremental output per finance worker (risk-adjusted) | $1,081,200 | $1,081,200 | $1,081,200 | ||
| Three-year total: $3,243,600 | Three-year present value: $2,688,784 | |||||
Evidence and data. Prior to migrating to SAP Cloud ERP Private on AWS, interviewees’ organizations experienced frequent issues with planned and unplanned systems outages for application upgrades and other disruptions.
The financial services organization experienced lengthy outages for patching and SAP upgrades, with one hardware patching event leading to four days of downtime. The application upgrades also required planning for several weeks and had to be completed during change freeze periods. As the managing director of cloud core banking data and integration at this institution explained: “Every time we had to install an SAP upgrade, we had to start the process of notifying everybody three months ahead of time and then [implement] a freeze period during that time. And it just got to the point where we said, ‘This is not the way we want to run our business.’”
One consumer product manufacturing organization had a highly customized SAP ECC environment, which made upgrades difficult and carried risks of additional downtime while teams resolved compatibility issues.
In addition to creating disruption among operating units on SAP, downtime created anxieties among IT staff. Interviewees reported 94% to 98% uptime before migrating to SAP Cloud ERP Private on AWS and 99%+ after the migration. For two of the interviewees’ organizations, the migration resulted in achieving zero unplanned outages.
Modeling and assumptions. Based on the interviews, Forrester assumes the following about the composite organization:
The composite organization experiences 98% uptime with its SAP ERP systems on-premises.
After migrating to SAP Cloud ERP Private on AWS, uptime is set at 99.7%, which is the contractual SAP service level agreement.
The organization’s operations in North America span five time zones, which total 12 hours of operation per day and 3,120 hours per year.
The average fully burdened hourly rate for an SAP business user is $44.
Total annual user hours recaptured from outages and other systems’ downtime equal 53,000.
A conservative productivity recapture rate of 25% has been applied to this calculation. This assumes that employees productively use one-fourth of the time previously lost due to outages.
Risks. Organizations will have varying degrees of reduction related to the SAP application outages based on:
The numbers and roles of SAP users, including how much time they typically spend on SAP applications.
The amount of time lost to outages in the previous data center environment.
Average salary and growth rates for SAP business users.
Results. To account for these risks, Forrester adjusted this benefit downward by 15%, yielding a three-year, risk-adjusted total PV (discounted at 10%) of $1.2 million.
Customer uptime on SAP Cloud ERP Private on AWS
| Ref. | Metric | Source | Year 1 | Year 2 | Year 3 | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| D1 | SAP application uptime with in-house data center | Interviews | 98.0% | 98.0% | 98.0% | |
| D2 | SAP application uptime with SAP Cloud ERP Private on AWS | Vendor | 99.7% | 99.7% | 99.7% | |
| D3 | Additional systems uptime during work periods with SAP Cloud ERP Private on AWS (hours) | (D2-D1)*3120 | 53 | 53 | 53 | |
| D4 | Estimated users affected by downtime during work hours | Composite | 1,000 | 1,000 | 1,000 | |
| D5 | Time recovered with SAP and AWS per year (hours) | D3*D4 | 53,000 | 53,000 | 53,000 | |
| D6 | Average fully burdened hourly rate for an end user | Research data | $44 | $44 | $44 | |
| D7 | Percentage of recovered time recaptured for other work tasks | TEI methodology | 25% | 25% | 25% | |
| Dt | Productivity gains from higher systems availability | D5*D6*D7 | $583,000 | $583,000 | $583,000 | |
| Risk adjustment | ↓15% | |||||
| Dtr | Productivity gains from higher systems availability (risk-adjusted) | $495,550 | $495,550 | $495,550 | ||
| Three-year total: $1,486,650 | Three-year present value: $1,232,360 | |||||
Improving Email Campaigns With SAP And AWS
One interviewee’s organization sold its products through its own branded retail stores and online channels as well as through general merchandise stores. For the online channels, it executed regular email campaigns for each of its 20+ product lines. These campaigns averaged a 5% conversion rate across all products. To execute each campaign within a brand, the organization had to pull data from its point-of-sale systems and SAP ERP, then merge it with a third-party campaign management system. After migrating to SAP Cloud ERP Private, it revamped this process and built a centralized data store in AWS Redshift, which extracted data from multiple sources across all product lines and ran it through cleaning and transformation steps. The merged data was then exported to SAP Emarsys for the campaigns. This data allowed the product marketing departments to get a more complete picture of consumer interactions, tailor promotions based on behavior and preferences, and measure campaign performance in real time. These activities led to higher customer engagement and increased cross-selling across all products. Overall conversion rates doubled to 10%, resulting in more than $10 million in incremental revenue in one year.
“We moved all the data to AWS and then merged [additional data sources] in AWS before we pushed the promotions out. We can now measure how many times a consumer clicks and uses a promotion and have definitely seen an uptick [in engagement]. While CRM is really the enabler, it’s the tools we’re using in AWS that are driving better data quality.”
Head of retail technology, consumer products manufacturing
Interviewees mentioned the following additional benefits that their organizations experienced but were not able to quantify:
Reduction in vendors/vendor management costs. One consumer goods manufacturing organization in the study consolidated vendor contracts, eliminating more than 100 vendor records and reducing vendor management spend by approximately 10%. It was able to achieve further cost savings through better pricing and terms through consolidated relationships. As stated by the head of retail technology at this company: “SAP facilitated improved oversight and control over vendor spend. For example, we found five contracts with the same organization across multiple brands and were able to consolidate them.”
Launching additional new products. Improvements led to more efficient and effective product development processes, allowing one consumer products manufacturing organization to bring new products to market faster and with greater alignment to customer needs and preferences. In its first year after integrating its product lifecycle management application with SAP Cloud ERP Private, the organization released three additional products/modules as compared to the previous year. The application improved visibility into product development stages and timelines, enabled better tracking and management of product ideas from inception to market launch, and enhanced collaboration between different teams involved in product development, leading to more efficient workflows. Again, the head of retail technology at this company commented, “We now have a consolidated product lifecycle flow that captures demand and consumer suggestions more effectively.”
Consolidation of payroll systems for permanent employees and contract workers. Before moving to SAP Cloud ERP Private, one manufacturing organization used separate payroll systems for permanent employees and contract workers. With SAP Cloud ERP Private, it consolidated these systems into SAP Success Factors, eliminating the need for complex integrations and reducing errors. The new system provided a single source of truth for payroll data, ensuring consistency and accuracy and reducing the need for manual updates and data reconciliation between different systems. Additionally, it could then convert contract employees to full time more easily. The head of retail technology at this company explained further: “We had a different payroll system for permanent people and then we had another system for temps. So we had to build integrations and had lots of data moving around, lots of errors, and no single source of truth.”
Simplified IT architecture. By migrating to a modern cloud ERP on AWS, interviewees said that their organizations could shed legacy systems and technical debt, leading to more streamlined and manageable IT architectures. SAP tools were available to monitor and manage workloads using AWS’s compute elasticity, which enabled their organizations to adjust resources dynamically, simplifying capacity planning and ensuring efficient use of IT resources. Centralizing data on AWS to complement SAP products led to improved data integration and accessibility, reduced data silos, and enhanced decision-making capabilities. With the RISE with SAP journey, organizations started to standardize business processes, reducing the reliance on customized solutions and simplifying IT management.
Enhanced security. Interviewees said that SAP cloud operations provided comprehensive cloud security services, including cloud posture management, threat and vulnerability management, security monitoring, and data protection. They also noted that SAP cloud operations enabled them to leverage AWS security services like dedicated communication lines for secure connections to the ERP and built-in encryption and access controls. For example, the IT manager at an industrial manufacturing organization commented, “We have a dedicated line directly connected between AWS and our company, so that no one can access it externally, and that makes us feel very safe.”
The value of flexibility is unique to each customer. There are multiple scenarios in which a customer might begin the RISE with SAP journey and later realize additional use cases and benefits. Many of these center around various AWS services, including:
Amazon Redshift. Interviewees’ organizations leveraged AWS Redshift for their data warehouse needs and used Amazon S3 buckets for various process flows, a setup that supported their data integration and analytics efforts.
AWS SageMaker. One interviewee’s organization employed SageMaker for AI/ML modeling, including experimentation and model training. The managing director of cloud core banking data and integration at a financial services institution stated: “We ingest SAP data into SageMaker where we have our own custom AI models. There we do a lot of experimentation, model training, and model serving to develop some predictive analytics.”
AWS data lakes. One of the interviewees’ organizations had begun implementing data lakes to support data storage and analytics, enabling better data management and analysis. This incorporated AWS Glue for data pipeline management and extract, transform, and load processes.
AWS for connected products. The consumer product manufacturing organization used AWS services, such as IoT Core and IoT Device Management for smart device connectivity and management. As the cloud and connectivity leader at a consumer products manufacturing company stated “we have these consumer [mobile] apps for a whole range of connected [household] products. For those we use AWS in the backend.”
Additionally, some of the interviewees’ organizations were starting to explore ways to employ various parts of SAP’s Business Suite, including:
SAP Business Technology Platform (BTP). The foundational layer for all SAP products, this platform allows developers to integrate, automate, extend, and build AI-powered business applications and processes. The IT manager at an industrial manufacturing company described using BTP services to create forms for unstructured data outside of SAP and then bring it into SAP for viewing. One of the interviewees also cited AWS’s broad support of BTP services as a deciding factor for their organization.
SAP Business Data Cloud (BDC). SAP recently launched BDC as a complete SaaS data and analytics solution to unify and govern all SAP data and connect with third-party data to deliver insights across all lines of business. It provides managed capabilities for business data fabric, data warehouse, planning, data engineering, and ML/AI.
SAP Business AI. Interviewees explored using Business AI to embed AI capabilities across their SAP business applications, including SAP Cloud ERP Private, to automate tasks, accelerate processes, and empower employees. It includes Joule, an AI digital assistant that utilizes AI agents to perform autonomous tasks and workflows. It also includes use cases and a platform to build custom AI that can enhance efficiency across business functions.
Flexibility would also be quantified when evaluated as part of a specific project (described in more detail in Total Economic Impact Approach).
| Ref. | Cost | Initial | Year 1 | Year 2 | Year 3 | Total | Present Value |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Etr | External migration costs | $4,140,000 | $0 | $0 | $0 | $4,140,000 | $4,140,000 |
| Ftr | Total internal FTE costs for migration | $2,815,200 | $0 | $0 | $0 | $2,815,200 | $2,815,200 |
| Gtr | Annual SAP Cloud ERP Private subscription fee | $0 | $849,695 | $849,695 | $849,695 | $2,549,085 | $2,113,066 |
| Htr | Training costs | $770,000 | $84,700 | $84,700 | $84,700 | $1,024,100 | $980,636 |
| Itr | Internal SAP support costs | $0 | $594,000 | $594,000 | $594,000 | $1,782,000 | $1,477,190 |
| Total costs (risk-adjusted) | $7,725,200 | $1,528,395 | $1,528,395 | $1,528,395 | $12,310,385 | $11,526,092 |
Evidence and data. The largest and most variable component of costs were external migration costs that interviewees’ organizations paid to SIs. These SIs led all implementation and transformation efforts, while SAP provided landscape setup and database provisioning, and AWS offered architecture guidance and cloud infrastructure expertise.
Total costs and timelines for migration varied widely among interviewees’ organizations. The primary drivers were the previous ERP environments and the extent of business transformation. Organizations coming from an ERP system other than SAP (a “greenfield” migration) spent far more than those coming from SAP ECC or SAP S4/HANA on-premises (a “brownfield” migration). Additionally, organizations that needed to change their business processes to better align with SAP Cloud ERP Private typically expended additional time and effort from business area staff. One organization that undertook a greenfield migration with business transformation for 25 workstreams involved several hundred staff and took more than two years.
Beyond the migration type, other factors can affect the length and complexity of migration efforts. These include the number of ERP instances and databases, degree of consolidation, amount of custom code and data cleansing, and number of regions or countries.
More than one organization in the study made the key strategic decision to minimize customizations and align more closely with standard processes offered by SAP Cloud ERP Private, which can simplify maintenance, reduce technical debt, and ensure smoother future upgrades.
SAP offers migration and transformation tools, such as SAP Signavio and SAP LeanIX, for process analysis and architecture planning to assist customers and SIs.
Modeling and assumptions. Based on the interviews, Forrester assumes the following about the composite organization:
The composite is migrating from SAP ECC on-premises to SAP Cloud ERP Private on AWS. ERP capabilities include finance, supply chain, and human resources.
Estimated SI costs are $200,000 per month with an 18-month migration duration.
The amount and front-loading of external migration costs limits the three-year ROI. After five years, the ROI improves significantly.
Risks. As stated above, several factors can influence the challenges and duration of the SAP Cloud ERP Private migration. These include the amount of custom code, number of ERP applications and databases, and geographic reach of the new ERP.
Results. To account for these risks, Forrester adjusted this cost upward by 15%, yielding a three-year, risk-adjusted total PV (discounted at 10%) of $4.1 million.
Initial third-party investment for SAP Cloud ERP Private on AWS
| Ref. | Metric | Source | Initial | Year 1 | Year 2 | Year 3 |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| E1 | Cost of migration to SAP Cloud ERP Private on AWS (monthly) | Composite | $200,000 | |||
| E2 | Duration of SAP Cloud ERP Private migration (months) | Composite | 18 | |||
| Et | External migration costs | E1*E2 | $3,600,000 | $0 | $0 | $0 |
| Risk adjustment | ↑15% | |||||
| Etr | External migration costs (risk-adjusted) | $4,140,000 | $0 | $0 | $0 | |
| Three-year total: $4,140,000 | Three-year present value: $4,140,000 | |||||
Evidence and data. Even with SIs leading the migration efforts, interviewees’ organizations required significant internal resources to work alongside them. This was particularly important with business process reengineering efforts.
Interviewees’ organizations allocated anywhere from dozens to several hundred resources to migration efforts, most on a part-time basis. These roles included SAP business analysts, systems architects, functional experts, application developers, and testers.
One organization’s RISE with SAP journey started with a single function (finance) and involved a half dozen agile scrum teams made up of 60 to 70 resources from the client and SI. These finance capabilities took approximately 12 months to implement. As the managing director of cloud core banking data and integration at a financial services institution stated, “We wanted to really make sure we’re not doing a simple shift and [instead] do brainstorming and process reengineering first to get ideas, … then do some experimentation and really work on it.”
Modeling and assumptions. Based on the interviews, Forrester assumes that the composite creates project teams to work alongside SI resources. Roles include SAP business analysts, project managers, and testers. It assigns 25 resources over the entire migration at 50% of their time.
Risks. The numbers, roles, and salaries assigned to support the migration can vary based on the following factors:
The number of ERP instances and databases to migrate.
The extent of business process reengineering, which can be related to level of customization in the on-premises ERP.
The number and type of SAP users.
Salaries and growth rates for various business and IT support roles.
Results. To account for these risks, Forrester adjusted this cost upward by 15%, yielding a three-year, risk-adjusted total PV (discounted at 10%) of $2.8 million.
| Ref. | Metric | Source | Initial | Year 1 | Year 2 | Year 3 |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| F1 | Project/program managers involved in migration | Composite | 5 | |||
| F2 | Software testers involved in migration | Composite | 15 | |||
| F3 | SAP business analysts involved in migration | Composite | 5 | |||
| F4 | Average fully burdened monthly salary for a project manager | Research data | $10,400 | |||
| F5 | Average fully burdened monthly salary for a software tester | Research data | $10,900 | |||
| F6 | Average fully burdened monthly salary for an SAP business analyst | Research data | $11,300 | |||
| F7 | Length of SAP Cloud ERP Private migration (months) | Composite | 18 | |||
| F8 | Time allocated to migration activities | Composite | 50% | |||
| Ft | Total internal FTE costs for migration | (F1*F4+F2*F5+F3*F6)*F7*F8 | $2,448,000 | $0 | $0 | $0 |
| Risk adjustment | ↑15% | |||||
| Ftr | Total internal FTE costs for migration (risk-adjusted) | $2,815,200 | $0 | $0 | $0 | |
| Three-year total: $2,815,200 | Three-year present value: $2,815,200 | |||||
Evidence and data. The subscription fee is all inclusive for SAP Cloud ERP Private, operational tools, and technical cloud services, including AWS hosting, migration services and tools, and version upgrades. The fee is sized for an organization’s peak capacity and processing needs. Interviewees in the study mentioned pricing was customized for their specific environment and contractual needs.
SAP Cloud ERP Private encompasses business capabilities for finance and procurement, supply chain, sales, service, production, and product lifecycle.
The pricing unit is based on full user equivalent (FUE). These equate to users at the following ratios:
SAP provides tools to monitor and manage workloads, including access to logs and operational data. These tools include Technical Infrastructure Controller, which manages provisioning of AWS compute and storage based on customer needs.
Pricing may vary. Contact SAP for additional details.
Modeling and assumptions. Based on the interviews, Forrester assumes the following about the composite organization:
The composite has 5,000 users spread across finance, supply chain, and procurement.
Users span these areas roughly equally, with just 1% being developers.
The price of one FUE = $350 per year.3
Risks. There are several factors that can affect the pricing amount and calculation, including:
The total number and classification of users across type.
The sizing of AWS cloud resources for systems compute performance and storage capacities, which can change over time. SAP performs a review of customer sizing requirements when finalizing contracts. It also offers regular planning reviews to help with capacity sizing, security patches, and software release updates. However, organizations should monitor their actual workloads closely. As the head of retail technology at a consumer products manufacturing company stated, “For the first six months, we didn’t do it, so we were paying for a load of power we didn’t really need; now we’re a little bit savvier.”
Results. To account for these risks, Forrester adjusted this cost upward by 10%, yielding a three-year, risk-adjusted total PV (discounted at 10%) of $2.1 million.
| Ref. | Metric | Source | Initial | Year 1 | Year 2 | Year 3 |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| G1 | Advanced users | Composite | 1,750 | 1,750 | 1,750 | |
| G2 | Core users | Composite | 1,500 | 1,500 | 1,500 | |
| G3 | Self-service users | Composite | 1,700 | 1,700 | 1,700 | |
| G4 | Developers | Composite | 50 | 50 | 50 | |
| G5 | FUEs | G1+G2/5+G3/30+G4*2 | 2,207 | 2,207 | 2,207 | |
| G6 | Annual subscription fee per FUE | Vendor | $350 | $350 | $350 | |
| Gt | Annual SAP Cloud ERP Private subscription fee | G5*G6 | $0 | $772,450 | $772,450 | $772,450 |
| Risk adjustment | ↑10% | |||||
| Gtr | Annual SAP Cloud ERP Private subscription fee (risk-adjusted) | $0 | $849,695 | $849,695 | $849,695 | |
| Three-year total: $2,549,085 | Three-year present value: $2,113,066 | |||||
Evidence and data. There can be significant training costs associated with SAP Cloud ERP Private, which vary based on the extent of business transformation and SAP enablement services. Both the SI and SAP can provide technical and business-process-oriented training.
Interviewees noted that the bulk of training activities and expenditure occurred during the implementation period and were provided by the SI. Some interviewees cited expenses up to and exceeding $1 million.
SAP offers a training and adoption package designed to help individuals and organizations effectively learn, implement, and maximize the value of SAP ERP solutions. This package provides digital learning solutions, instructor led training (live or online), certifications, online communities, and custom training programs.
Pricing for training may vary. Contact SAP for additional details.
Modeling and assumptions. Based on the interviews, Forrester assumes that the composite’s training expenses are approximately 20% of total SI costs and 10% of ongoing SAP subscription fees.
Risks. Organizations will have varying training costs over time depending on the following factors:
The extent of business transformation changes.
The SAP Cloud ERP Private components and features used.
The extent to which an organization employs AWS services, which can naturally increase over time.
Results. To account for these risks, Forrester adjusted this cost upward by 10%, yielding a three-year, risk-adjusted total PV (discounted at 10%) of $981,000.
| Ref. | Metric | Source | Initial | Year 1 | Year 2 | Year 3 |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| H1 | Change management training (SI) | Composite | $700,000 | $0 | $0 | $0 |
| H2 | SAP training and adoption package (10% of contract) | Vendor | $0 | $77,000 | $77,000 | $77,000 |
| Ht | Training costs | H1+H2 | $700,000 | $77,000 | $77,000 | $77,000 |
| Risk adjustment | ↑10% | |||||
| Htr | Training costs (risk-adjusted) | $770,000 | $84,700 | $84,700 | $84,700 | |
| Three-year total: $1,024,100 | Three-year present value: $980,636 | |||||
Evidence and data. With SAP Cloud ERP Private on AWS, SAP manages the infrastructure and application support. Still, most interviewees’ organizations retained resources in the position of end-user support for SAP users.
Interviewees’ organizations had anywhere from eight to 18 resources assigned to SAP application support.
These resources were responsible for SAP application configurations and working with SAP to ensure they applied patches and updates correctly. They also supported the users with training, processes, and reporting.
These roles may also work on Advanced Business Application Programming (ABAP) to customize SAP applications and work with SAP BTP to develop APIs and interfaces.
Modeling and assumptions. Based on the interviews, Forrester assumes that the composite organization assigns eight FTEs at 50% of their time to support SAP applications and users.
Risks. Resource costs for organizations using SAP Cloud ERP Private on AWS may vary based on the following factors:
The extent to which organizations customize SAP applications and use SAP ABAP and BTP.
The overall number and type of SAP users.
Salaries and growth rates for SAP application support roles.
Results. To account for these risks, Forrester adjusted this cost upward by 10%, yielding a three-year, risk-adjusted total PV (discounted at 10%) of $1.5 million.
| Ref. | Metric | Source | Initial | Year 1 | Year 2 | Year 3 |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| I1 | Employees delivering ongoing SAP ERP end-user support | Composite | 8 | 8 | 8 | |
| I2 | Fully burdened annual salary for an FTE | TEI standard | $135,000 | $135,000 | $135,000 | |
| I3 | Time allocated to SAP ERP end-user support tasks | Composite | 50% | 50% | 50% | |
| It | Internal SAP support costs | I1*I2*I3 | $0 | $540,000 | $540,000 | $540,000 |
| Risk adjustment | ↑10% | |||||
| Itr | Internal SAP support costs (risk-adjusted) | $0 | $594,000 | $594,000 | $594,000 | |
| Three-year total: $1,782,000 | Three-year present value: $1,477,190 | |||||
| Initial | Year 1 | Year 2 | Year 3 | Total | Present Value | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Total costs | ($7,725,200) | ($1,528,395) | ($1,528,395) | ($1,528,395) | ($12,310,385) | ($11,526,092) |
| Total benefits | $0 | $6,097,450 | $6,752,800 | $7,408,150 | $20,258,400 | $16,689,815 |
| Net benefits | ($7,725,200) | $4,569,055 | $5,224,405 | $5,879,755 | $7,948,015 | $5,163,723 |
| ROI | 45% | |||||
| Payback | 20 months |
The financial results calculated in the Benefits and Costs sections can be used to determine the ROI, NPV, and payback period for the composite organization’s investment. Forrester assumes a yearly discount rate of 10% for this analysis.
These risk-adjusted ROI, NPV, and payback period values are determined by applying risk-adjustment factors to the unadjusted results in each Benefit and Cost section.
The initial investment column contains costs incurred at “time 0” or at the beginning of Year 1 that are not discounted. All other cash flows are discounted using the discount rate at the end of the year. PV calculations are calculated for each total cost and benefit estimate. NPV calculations in the summary tables are the sum of the initial investment and the discounted cash flows in each year. Sums and present value calculations of the Total Benefits, Total Costs, and Cash Flow tables may not exactly add up, as some rounding may occur.
From the information provided in the interviews, Forrester constructed a Total Economic Impact™ framework for those organizations considering an investment in SAP Cloud ERP Private on AWS.
The objective of the framework is to identify the cost, benefit, flexibility, and risk factors that affect the investment decision. Forrester took a multistep approach to evaluate the impact that SAP Cloud ERP Private on AWS can have on an organization.
Interviewed SAP and AWS stakeholders and Forrester analysts to gather data relative to SAP Cloud ERP Private on AWS.
Interviewed four decision-makers at organizations using SAP Cloud ERP Private on AWS to obtain data about costs, benefits, and risks.
Designed a composite organization based on characteristics of the interviewees’ organizations.
Constructed a financial model representative of the interviews using the TEI methodology and risk-adjusted the financial model based on issues and concerns of the interviewees.
Employed four fundamental elements of TEI in modeling the investment impact: benefits, costs, flexibility, and risks. Given the increasing sophistication of ROI analyses related to IT investments, Forrester’s TEI methodology provides a complete picture of the total economic impact of purchase decisions. Please see Appendix A for additional information on the TEI methodology.
Benefits represent the value the solution delivers to the business. The TEI methodology places equal weight on the measure of benefits and costs, allowing for a full examination of the solution’s effect on the entire organization.
Costs comprise all expenses necessary to deliver the proposed value, or benefits, of the solution. The methodology captures implementation and ongoing costs associated with the solution.
Flexibility represents the strategic value that can be obtained for some future additional investment building on top of the initial investment already made. The ability to capture that benefit has a PV that can be estimated.
Risks measure the uncertainty of benefit and cost estimates given: 1) the likelihood that estimates will meet original projections and 2) the likelihood that estimates will be tracked over time. TEI risk factors are based on “triangular distribution.”
The present or current value of (discounted) cost and benefit estimates given at an interest rate (the discount rate). The PV of costs and benefits feed into the total NPV of cash flows.
The present or current value of (discounted) future net cash flows given an interest rate (the discount rate). A positive project NPV normally indicates that the investment should be made unless other projects have higher NPVs.
A project’s expected return in percentage terms. ROI is calculated by dividing net benefits (benefits less costs) by costs.
The interest rate used in cash flow analysis to take into account the time value of money. Organizations typically use discount rates between 8% and 16%.
The breakeven point for an investment. This is the point in time at which net benefits (benefits minus costs) equal initial investment or cost.
Total Economic Impact is a methodology developed by Forrester Research that enhances a company’s technology decision-making processes and assists solution providers in communicating their value proposition to clients. The TEI methodology helps companies demonstrate, justify, and realize the tangible value of business and technology initiatives to both senior management and other key stakeholders.
1 The RISE with SAP package has been replaced with the SAP Cloud ERP Private Edition package. RISE with SAP now refers to the transformation journey for on-premises ERP customers to migrate and modernize their ERPs.
2 Total Economic Impact is a methodology developed by Forrester Research that enhances a company’s technology decision-making processes and assists solution providers in communicating their value proposition to clients. The TEI methodology helps companies demonstrate, justify, and realize the tangible value of business and technology initiatives to both senior management and other key stakeholders.
3 This fee may vary, contact SAP for more information.
Readers should be aware of the following:
This study is commissioned by SAP and AWS and delivered by Forrester Consulting. It is not meant to be used as a competitive analysis.
Forrester makes no assumptions as to the potential ROI that other organizations will receive. Forrester strongly advises that readers use their own estimates within the framework provided in the study to determine the appropriateness of an investment in SAP Cloud ERP Private on AWS. For any interactive functionality, the intent is for the questions to solicit inputs specific to a prospect’s business. Forrester believes that this analysis is representative of what companies may achieve with SAP Cloud ERP Private on AWS based on the inputs provided and any assumptions made. Forrester does not endorse SAP and AWS or its offerings. Although great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy and completeness of this model, SAP, AWS, and Forrester Research are unable to accept any legal responsibility for any actions taken on the basis of the information contained herein. The interactive tool is provided ‘AS IS,’ and Forrester and SAP and AWS make no warranties of any kind.
SAP and AWS reviewed and provided feedback to Forrester, but Forrester maintains editorial control over the study and its findings and does not accept changes to the study that contradict Forrester’s findings or obscure the meaning of the study.
SAP and AWS provided the customer names for the interviews but did not participate in the interviews.
Jonathan Whaling
December 2025
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